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Thread: Purple in endler hybrids

  1. #1
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    Purple in endler hybrids

    Hello everyone,

    As a lot of you know I have a small group of endler hybrids I have been trying to breed back to a pretty convincing looking endler phenotype, testing my own knowledge, learning along the way, and ultimately ending up (I hope) with a tank full of pretty little fish I can hopefully enjoy for the next few years. Along the way this little project of mine has thrown up many questions, one of which I would like to focus on here.

    I noticed that the first group of hybrids I bought showed a distinctive metallic violet under their orange/green/black colours, on the body just a little back of the dorsal. I have also noticed in some endler hybrids who show more guppy traits that this violet can be quite widespread, I once found some hybrids who were violet, with a small snakeskin pattern around the belly, and had bright orangey tails, they were beautiful fish. I always assumed this purple came from the endler, now I wonder is this violet a trait that comes more from the fancy guppy used in the cross rather than the endler? I notice wild guppies can show quite a lot of purple, not all, but some, yet fancy guppies don't often come in purple and those that do are along the lines of purple moscows, some are purple snakeskins, others show purple in other ways, but I have not come across any yet, they seem more difficult to get a hold of. Is it possible that endlers, not being so selectively bred, bring out more of the wild colours of the guppy they have been hybridized with in the young? Wild caught endlers, from what I have seen (admittedly only photographs) do not have any sign of this purple. I wonder if the purple, even in such small amounts, in my first endler hybrids, may have been one of the indications of hybridization? Such as the white dorsal fin which some state is a sign of hybridization (not including the wild caught lime green type endlers who show this trait such as those on Adrians website). Is it possible the purple I have seen on wild guppies is a trick of the camera used to photograph them? The purple on my first endler hybrids was a rich violet colour, is this seen on wild guppies? Ultimately where does it originate and can it be used as an indication of hybridization between the two populations of fish (wild/fancy guppies and endlers). Is it something I most definitely need to breed out of my own hybrid project, and avoid adding in with new stock? Any thoughts or ideas anyone?
    Last edited by miyu; September 26th-2012 at 11:46 PM.

  2. #2
    I believe the purple and lavender you are talking about comes from the magenta guppy. I have magenta in my hybrids who produced pink and lavender with white snake markings.

    Another group you might want to check on since you are involved with genetics is guppy designers. Just google and you will find it.

  3. #3
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    Thank you chocolateplaty, turns out I was reading that site last night , it was very interesting indeed, I wonder where I can find the publications for this persons work, hours of good reading right there! I have learnt things I never imagined were even possible from that site, it's great (how silly of me, he sells his work on the site!)

    I did not think of magenta, indeed that was not a reply I was expecting but there lies the beauty of it I will certainly look into it, I noticed today one of the new males does actually have a small amount of purple/violet, although not very noticeable, so perhaps by reading about the magenta gene I can find out where it originated, maybe even a reference to endler hybrids if I'm very very lucky! I need to work out if it is something I need to breed out, I'm thinking yes for sure, but it needs more research. Thank you again!

  4. #4
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    chocolateplaty, do you find the violet colour shows up quite well on magentas but does not photograph well? I have found pictures online of fish very similar to the hybrids I had that were purple, with a small snakeskin pattern and orange tails, they are being called magenta snakeskin crosses on the site, it seems my fish did not show the endler traits they had if mine were the same phenotype as these online pictures, and they photograph like mine did, not showing the violet all that well, although it gets more interesting than that! These fish I had were a good size, somewhere between endler and guppy, so I guess their size at least may have been decided by some endler genes, of course with these fish I did not breed them myself and only take the word of the person who sold me them when they say what their parentage is and that they were hybrids, so those fish may always be a mystery in reality due to the unknowns.

    My original group of hybrids, were 5 males and 4 females, from a tank with obvious hybrids that were showing guppy traits such as a full colour tail, indeed some of these were violet with orange tails and so tiny, if I had room I would have taken them home and put them in their own tank, they were so cute and beautiful! although they did not have any snake skin pattern like the other violet fish with orange tails, this violet colour was widespread in the original group, but I picked only those with the best endler traits, so disregarded violet, I later saw these small patches of violet on my fish but have not seen it as much lately, apart from on those fish that were crossed with more guppies in a separate tank, that event has taught me a few things I can tell you! I have a hybrid in that tank with quite endler like traits, but some violet on his sides, long split swords, bigger body, he's an odd one! I got him back from my partners mother the other day, I must try to get a picture, to think he was almost flushed!

    I now have another question, why is it the guppy/endler hybrids often show this violet? Is it a mix of colours even? I think perhaps because I happened to see some violets on a couple of separate occasions, perhaps I think it is more common than it really is. I have not seen many crosses. Obviously I don't know what fish people are using in the cross, perhaps I am seeing their magenta crosses, I am thinking it comes from the guppy, but for me this is more a guess than anything else, and not a very well educated one at that! The violet/orange SS's I had were from the same source as my first endler hybrids, perhaps they were related, there are too many unknowns amongst fish I have seen to come to any firm conclusion. In the end, what I need to know is, do I eliminate this violet in my hybrid population to get nearer to my goal? I see photographs of hybrids with their 'guppy faults' pointed out, but no mention of this violet colour, do N class endlers ever show a violet? I know it does not photograph well, perhaps I am not seeing it because of the camera or the flash, but is it there on endlers? Has anyone noticed violet on their own endlers that they know are N class? I have not heard mention of it when people have described endlers caught from the wild, green, orange, black, gold, these are the colours I usually hear described.

    http://english.myguppy.net/viewthrea...ntable&tid=597

    Last photo on the page, my purchased males looked like that when they were photographed, the violet colour shows well under some lights but not with photography, the tail pattern was similar, very 'magenta' if you know what I mean? So, perhaps magentas were indeed used with endlers at some point in my hybrids past and those males I bought were related to my endler group somehow, it would account for it, but still it is all guess work with no real substance as I just don't know for sure where they came from. So is violet ever evident in wild caught or N class endlers? I must be sure before I start to pick and choose, although I have time while waiting for numbers to increase.

    Thank you again! Untangling the thoughts in my brain can be a complicated process for me haha, you must have a lot of patience :P
    Last edited by miyu; September 27th-2012 at 02:49 PM.

  5. #5
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    Purple Body Mutation (Pb)

    All, The purple trait mentioned in the Endler hybrids is Purple Body Mutation. It does not occur in pure wild-stock Endler to the best of my knowledge. Pb allows for strains such as IFGA Purples, Ginga Rubra and Gina Sulphureus. It appears to be an autosomal recessive and is distinct from Magenta. Magenta fish can appear either green or Pb. I have bred heavily for this trait in my stocks for a couple decades and touch briefly on it in the following posting: http://swordtailguppies.blogspot.com...1_archive.html

    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by alansbias View Post
    All, The purple trait mentioned in the Endler hybrids is Purple Body Mutation. It does not occur in pure wild-stock Endler to the best of my knowledge. Pb allows for strains such as IFGA Purples, Ginga Rubra and Gina Sulphureus. It appears to be an autosomal recessive and is distinct from Magenta. Magenta fish can appear either green or Pb. I have bred heavily for this trait in my stocks for a couple decades and touch briefly on it in the following posting: http://swordtailguppies.blogspot.com...1_archive.html

    Alan
    To carry things one step farther, the homozygous for Blond (b,b) removes the melanophore base and replaces it with a leucophore base? The lime green color is the result of a mixture of blue crystal iridophores and and yellow pigment xanthophores with a leucophore base, and the violet color is the result of a mixture of blue crystal iridophores and red pigment erythrophores with a leucophore base? So my question is, "Can the Pb gene complex create a leucophore base on its own or is the leucophore base the result of the homozygous state for Blond (b,b)? Can the Pb gene complex phenotype be manifested with either a melanophore base or a leucophore base without the Blond (b,b) genetic environment?"
    John

  7. #7
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    John, While both blond & golden are considered epistatic to black, neither removes regular "non-mutant" black melanophores. Mutant as found in HB (NiII). Each only regulates melanophore size & distribution. Leuchophores (or iridophores) would already be present or not, regardless. In example: Blond variegated finnage. Black areas appear clear / translucent from regulation, not removal or melanophores. Similar effect can also occur in the body of blonds. Pb is a full body modifier from my experience. In guppies it occurs in wild-type grey and many autosomals such as blond, Asian Blau, Golden and even albino. Pb has no direct effect on the occurrence of either leuchophores or iridophores. I suspect there is a distinct autosomal mutation (not yet described?) responsible for decreased leuchophores / iridophores found in some fish. This resulting in an over-all translucent appearance in certain zones of regulation. A reduction of either enhances the visible effect of Pb which is most prevalent and visible, but not limited to, the peduncle region. This region often has the the least amount of visible leuchophores / iridophores in certain strains.

    Alan

  8. #8
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    Thank you Alan and I would like to say that your website is a major gift to the world of today's guppy hobbyist! What caught my interest was that lime green is an Endler (P. wingie) trait that is not found in guppies (P. reticulata) and that Endler-guppy hybrids show the metallic violet color that you are associating with the Pb gene and not the lime green color. In Philip Shaddock's PDF "Guppy Color Mutations Under The Microscope" there are two pictures (pg. 125 and pg. 126) that show a magnified look at the color cell arrangement in the skin of the guppy Platinum gene mutation. These pictures seem to indicate that blue crystal iridophores are very closely associated with white leucophores. The original word for "metal" came from the Japanese word for "shiny" and when blue iridophores are closely associated with a white leucophore base, as in the platinum phenotype, this "shiny" reality is created. I call this blue iridophore white leucophore mix/association "Metalic White", for lack of any other term. Philip in his books seems to indicate that if you want a darker color you then need to select for a melanophore (black) base and that if you want a lighter color that you then need to select for leucophore (white) base.

    Endlers have bright shiny colors. Most Endler-guppy hybrids are an attempt by folks to incorporate this bright shiny color quality into the genetics of the guppy. Lime green , if the base color was made up of blue crystal iridophores in close association/mixed? with leucophores, then the yellow xanthophores above this base would become shiny lime green (create that light mixture). If the base color was made up of blue iridophores in close association with white leucophores, then the red erythrophores above this base would become shiny violet (create that light mixture). In the Endler this what I am calling metallic white is associated with the yellow xanthophores, but in an Endler-guppy hybrid the metalic white is associated with the red erythrophores. From there we could possibly deduce that the Pb gene with a blacker base color would give dark purples and that the Pb gene with a whiter base color would give violets. And that if the "metallic white color cell combination" was the white base then the purple and violets would be shiny.

    Alan as you already know , because of the things that I have said on this message board and on the Guppy Designer message board in the past, it is my opinion that all of the Fancy Guppy strains in today's Fancy Guppy world are P. wingie P. riticulata hybrids (Miyu originally brought this possibility to my attention on this message board when I was new to this message board) and because of this hybrid guppy cross we have the wonderment that we have in today's world of the Fancy Guppy. The question is to me is, "What in the genetics of today's Fancy Guppy is a contribution from the Endler (P. wingie) and what is a contribution from the Guppy (P. reticulata)? And your gift of mentioning the Pb gene and how it works, I think, is another clue to sorting out the genetic mixture of today's Fancy Guppy, which is why I asked the questions that I did.

    Thank you Alan for your patience it is appreciated and for your wonderful website.
    John
    Last edited by tucker62; December 27th-2012 at 06:08 PM.

  9. #9
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    John, You have a good eye for observation. Think we need to backup and differentiate between violet color vs. Pb. You state:
    and that Endler-guppy hybrids show the metallic violet color that you are associating with the Pb gene and not the lime green color.

    In regions under its control Pb turns Wingean Orange spots to a pink coloration that is usually ringed by iridophores, or at least it additionally reveals the irridophores. To date I have never seen a guppy with a mixture of orange and pink spots on the same fish. Green based guppies show orange and Pb guppies show pink. In Endler with violet color pigment the Wingean Orange spots can remain orange. I notice Endler's can express violet color pattern seemingly independent of Pb.

    IFGA Purples are likely a similar combination of violet and Pb. Overlapping wild populations of Endler / Guppy allows for hybridization and hybrid Endlers that seem to express Pb.

    On this link notice the first two fish on top left: http://www.wildguppys.com/page3/page...17/page17.html

    They are referenced as Class-N documented pure strain. Though simply by phenotype (and collection locale) and not genotype. Personally I have not run across any pure Endler that express a combination of pink and orange spots. Only hybrids. I'll note such combination of pink & orange spots occurs routinely in my Ginga and makes them suspect of Endler / Guppy heritage. These first two fish express a violet pigment and may show orange spots as "pink" in the peduncle. Could also be just the photo as others remain orange. I still see these fish as only expressing violet color and not expressing Pb. My point being I think these are two distinct traits; Pb and violet color patches. I may be wrong and it turns out to be zones of regulation. In combination likely enhance each other in expression. With Pb a recessive that has been breed out of pure Endler populations.

    Like most research, Phil's color studies w/Platinum - Metal raise two questions for every one answered. About 15 years ago I started concentrating or iridescence, ie iridophores in my fish, instead of simple color pigment. Recently, I have been focusing on autosomal mutations that further enhance expression. So while still breeding for yellow fish, my emphasis is on iridophores. Not only known silver / blue and white leucophores, but also feasibility of gold and red iridophores in guppies. Use of certain mutations that remove red and yellow pigment suggest other types of iridophores do exist in guppies.

    While crystalline blue iridophores and white leucophores in combination may allow for iridescence in certain mutations I don't think it explains them all. There are other types of irridophores. In example, IFGA Apple Greens likely contain gold iridophores and not simply additional yellow pigment. Apple green being a parallel to Endler lime green. Endler's likely have retained such additional iridophores and concentrated them through various selection pressure. The question is are they simple sex link (if so, Y &/or X) or autosomal? Many breeders are in a rush to create ornamental strains via Endler infusions, but they are not being documented.

    As a stock breeder not sure there is benefit in seeking to identify origins of genotype in modern ornamental guppies. Retuculata, Wingai and Obscura all have a common ancestry. So, I personally focus on identifying the mutations and traits for use as tools in creating ornamental guppy strains.

    Alan

  10. #10
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    Ok Alan I do understand what you are saying and thank you for the information it was very helpful. The more than one way to do the same thing is one of the interesting aspects of guppy color genetics and the phenotypes that they create. I had some of what I call "blue glow" baby guppies that were born with a light blue florescent color to them. They are the result of a grey wild type sport clear caudal finned male and a half black LPS blue delta female and are from the F2 generation. They are all males, not half black, and now that they are reaching maturity they are now giving off a yellow gold full body glow as they are beginning to show their male color patterns. That gold has got to be yellow iridophores and it has to be sex chromosome related because it is associated with the production of testosterone. What is interesting is that their sisters were born with a golden glow and the half black peduncle. All of the blue glow babies became male and all of the yellow glow babies became female and they kept the yellow glow with maturity and the blue glow males developed the yellow glow at maturity. I can't wait to see what the F3 generation is going to look like . I am expecting guppies that only a mother would love.

    Also, I agree with you about not focusing on whether or not today's Fancy Guppy is a hybrid or not. Short of a complete science lab everything would just be pure speculation anyway. I think that the Blond (b,b) creates a metallic white leucophore base and that the Golden (Mg) mutation creates gold iridophores. But the truth is that my genetics research for the last 20 years has been with using caudal fin colors and color patterns as gene color markers to explore the recessive genes that create tail shape and length when different caudal fin phenotypes are mixed. During the last twenty years I have been doing it without records and just for my own curiosity. But after hanging out with the Guppy Designer members I think that there might be some scientific value to what I have been doing if properly documented so I am setting up to document things for the next five or ten years. And the truth is Alan, all I really know about the genetics of guppy colors and color patterns is from what you and Philip and a few like you guys have written, so everything that you guys write about guppy genetics is a treasure to me. The only experience that actually I have is with exploring some of the Guppy caudal fin mixture phenotypes in a colony environment over time.
    John
    Last edited by tucker62; December 31st-2012 at 12:54 AM.

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